Birju Dattani’s tenure as Canada’s chief human rights commissioner was short-lived. After holding the post for less than a year, Dattani was forced to resign by a smear campaign targeting him for his social media posts criticizing Israel. Now, Dattani is suing his critics, and joins The Marc Steiner Show to discuss his case and the wider implications for human rights and free speech in countries backing Israel’s genocide of Palestinians.
Links:
- Read the Statement of Claim: https://www.stlbarristers.ca/for-media
- Support Birju Dattani’s legal fund: https://gogetfunding.com/help-birju-dattani-put-cija-lantsmann-and-levant-on-trial/
Production: David Hebden, Rosette Sewali
Post-production: Alina Nehlich
Transcript
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Marc Steiner:
Welcome to the Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. Great to have y’all with us, and we continue covering issues around the globe with people under attack from the right, and there’s a war going on. We know that war is happening in this country, United States, in Canada, across the globe, where the right is seizing power in one country after the other. And we are all here in that battle for the future. And we’re talking today to Birju Dattani. He was the executive director of the Yukon Human Rights Commission that’s in Canada, but for a very short while. That’s what we’re going to talk about. And he works as Director of Human Rights and Conflict Resolution at Centennial College, assistant regional director of the Alberta Human Rights Commission, and has been an activist and a lawyer and keeps on fighting despite the fact that he was pushed out by right male elements in the Jewish community and in the parliament that went after him and forced him to resign, which he did. The battle continues in court in other places. And vi welcome. Good to have you with us.
Birju Dattani:
Thank you, Marc. It’s a pleasure to be with you.
Marc Steiner:
Let me just, for folks who don’t know Canada that well, our American listeners or European listeners may not know a lot about what’s going on. What is the climate, the political climate that allowed you to be pushed out of a human rights commission to be attacked? What is the politics going on there?
Birju Dattani:
Well, I think the climate here in some ways is from where I sit worse than it is, or was, I should say, worse than it was in the United States. I think with this current regime that you have in the United States, all bets are off, of course. But I think that in a lot of ways historically and in a post October 7th world, the environment in Canada did not admit and has not admitted a diversity of voices on this issue or a diversity of perspectives on this issue. So in that sense, the space for discussion of things such as Israeli policy has been extraordinarily narrow, narrowly narrow. And that I think in the months following October 7th became narrower still. So for instance, and some of this you may have heard, but for the benefit of your audience, university students who would sign open letters in support or in solidarity with Palestinians would be boycotted from the legal profession if they were law students. Not only the students signing those letters, but the entirety of law schools would be boycotted by prominent law firms, thereby barring the participation to the legal profession, often from law students who are from historically marginalized backgrounds.
Marc Steiner:
That’s what’s happening at this moment.
Birju Dattani:
So in the aftermath of October 7th, so I’m going back to
November, December, 2023 letters were issued, the healthcare workers, educators who had shared a critical perspective would be canceled, many of them fired, run out of employment broadcasters, same thing and very little politically. I know that in the United States, you have voices like Rashida tb, you have Ellan Omar, you have a larger aggregate of voices, I think, on the left than we do in Canada. I mean, we do have some voices. Heather McPherson, for instance, of the NDP has been quite good on this issue. Nikki Ashton, Charlie Angus, but I think smaller country, those voices are in the aggregate, smaller and power is often concentrated in the hands of people who are a lot more, not only to the right, but even the center. And the center left positions on this issue are indistinguishable in some cases.
Marc Steiner:
Yeah. Quick digression, then jump right back in. I mean, you mentioned a new Democratic party, the left party in Canada. I remember when we all were excited at one point that they were actually potentially had some power, but I mean, it says a lot about where our two countries are. So let’s really step back for a moment and really explore what happened to you in the first place as a Muslim, the first Muslim in that kind of position and the battles it took place and the attack the place as soon as you got this job, as soon as you were being appointed to this commission, the attacks came from people in Parliament and other folks in Canada accusing you of being pro Hamas, being a terrorist, hating Jews being an antisemite. Tell us a bit about how that unfurled.
Birju Dattani:
Well, I think that the way that it unfurled is something that was never a secret in an employment situation. I mean, I have a resume like anybody else does. And when I was a PhD student at the School of Oriental and African Studies, I was a member of the Center for Palestine Studies among other academic institutions based out of that university. That was of course, on my resume, not a secret, certainly not a secret that I’ve kept. Some of my scholarship is available publicly, some of it isn’t. And just the way that it works. I’ve been on so many panels on international law, much of it on Israel Palestine, some of it not, some of it being on other issues that was being dredged up, and it was a lot of innuendos. So it would be something along the lines of you lectured during Israel apartheid week. That’s it. No one really knew what I had said.
So oftentimes it would be a guilt by association, paint by numbers type of a thing. So for instance, I shared a podium with Ben White who’s authored a number of books, who’s a journalist. His articles have appeared in the Independent, the Guardian, et cetera. So someone would go searching through Ben White’s books to find something that looked objectionable from a certain standpoint. And I thought, okay, well those are Ben White’s views and Ben White is entitled to his views. Being on a panel is not a team sport. I mean, my views are my views, but a lot of what I was doing during Israel Apartheid week was to explain what apartheid is, an international law, for example, or having shared a panel with Moba who was a Guantanamo Bay detainee, the same sort of horror stories. At some point he’s released from Guantanamo Bay, he’s given a settlement by the British government.
It was omitted that while I did share a panel with him, and I’ve always been against torture. I also, on that panel, I shared a platform with someone from Breitbart News. Of course, they put the thumbs over the words that would indicate that the person sitting right next to me was from Breitbart News or number of panels where I shared a platform with someone who was aboard the Mafia Marmara, which I didn’t know at the time, and it doesn’t really matter to me that he was aboard the Mafia Marmara. But at a lot of these panels, there’d be also members of the Zionist Federation of the United Kingdom, members of the pro-Israel lobby in Britain who were also on that panel. So there was in omission or selective rendering of this in a way that you would have to go out of your way to omit those facts.
And so this started to take on a life of its own in some ways. But I sat there thinking, at any point is someone going to attribute a view to me that they find objectionable? Which eventually did come in, again, a sentence taken out of context from part of my dissertation, which talked about or aligned, that suggested that terrorism as a strategy can be rational. And of course that isn’t a controversial proposition in the academic literature, but that was used to make it seem as though I was someone who glorified terrorism, the bad faith illusion that was taking place. I think that prompted almost a dozen academics in Canada to then speak publicly to the fact that number one, I wasn’t justifying terrorism number two, that’s basic international relations 1 0 1 stuff. And lastly that this seemed to be a bad faith smear job because they weren’t actually checking in with experts in the field.
Marc Steiner:
So I want to talk a bit about what the political dynamics are right now in Canada that even allowed this attack on you personally to take place. And the present conflict with Israel and Gaza. Israel and Palestinians has really gripped the world and people are really divided over it in deep ways. And I just want to know what the dynamic is in Canada and around you that allowed this to happen. Why did it happen?
Birju Dattani:
Sure. So I think that activism from pro-Israel law groups, I think around me and around this issue and related issues have focused really on two things. The first is to push to adopt the highly controversial IRA definition or our IHRA definition on antisemitism IRA standing for the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance,
Which conflates criticism of Israel in a lot of cases with antisemitism. And second, this attempt to suppress any concept of anti Palestinian racism as being recognized as a bonafide and legitimate type of racism. So adding to that context, there was a proposed piece of legislation called Bill C 63, also known as the Online Harms bill, where the liberal government was seeking to reintroduce a provision of the Canadian Human Rights Act, which would prescribe hate speech among other things. So there are criminal law dimensions to that, which would have nothing to do with the Canadian Human Rights Commission or the Canadian Human Rights Act, but there was a provision which would resurrect something that existed in that act before, which is to make hate speech actionable under Canadian human rights legislation. So a lot of these groups likely looked at the fact that given those twin efforts, calling on the adoption of the IRA definition of antisemitism on the one hand, and trying to suppress any notion of anti Palestinian racism as a legitimate racism on the other, I’m sure that if the person proposed for my position was a technocrat that really didn’t know very much about these issues, it’s easier than to direct your lobbying efforts in a way that that person might take your position.
I think that that would be harder with me given my academic background on these issues, but also and don’t want to lose sight of the fact that the conniption over my personal identity as someone who identifies as a Muslim who’s a person of color, those two things or those consolation of factors led to these efforts and the alacrity with which they were pursued.
Marc Steiner:
So in Canada at this moment, I mean Jews are minority in Canada. I have cousins in Canada, they all flipped from Poland. They came here, they went to Canada, they went to Palestine, they went all over Uruguay. But so I have cousins from Montreal and Toronto, and they are a minority community. And so what I was shocked about when I read what happened to you was that that was allowed to happen in terms of using antisemitism. The more they use and abuse antisemitism, the more it loses its meaning because it has lots of depth. It’s all over the place. So I’m very curious about the political dynamic in Canada at this moment that allows you and people like you to be attacked and where that comes from and what kind of movement is growing to fight it.
Birju Dattani:
And that’s a really interesting question mark. So I think what this looks like is, in some respects, Canada isn’t all that different in terms of the approaches and the views on this from the United States, from Europe, from the Anglosphere in terms of Jewish communities and in particular Jewish institutions as distinct from Jewish communities. So whether or not the institutions are an accurate reflection of the constituencies that they represent, I think is very much being called into question. But again, that doesn’t always play out in a way that’s reflective. So you’ve probably often heard it said, particularly in the American context, that most members of Jewish communities favor a two state solution. They are against the increase of settlements. They are typically voters. They vote for the Democratic party.
But that doesn’t come out when you look at the institutions that purport to speak to their names. So you wouldn’t know that by seeing what organizations like APAC or the A DL are doing or saying relative to those positions. So I’m reminded of Ron Dermer when he was the ambassador to Israel in the last Trump administration. He very famously said, we should stop dedicating our attentions on American Jews who are disproportionately among our critics. Let’s focus instead on evangelical Christians implying that there are more reliable ally. I think those dynamics play out in a similar way in Canada where the views of Jewish communities are not always reflected in the institutions that purport to speak out in their name. So there’s been wider efforts on those members of the Jewish community who do see this as problematic and who have been more vocal in speaking out. So the group independent Jewish voices, for instance, has been among my most strident supporters. I think they’ve issued multiple statements. They join me at the Deus during my press conference. They have posted a lot of my story on social media. I I actually attended a Shabbat dinner on Purim with members of the United Jewish People’s Order of Canada, independent Jewish voices and other members of the progressive Jewish community who have been very vocal. So
Marc Steiner:
In terms of what’s happening to you right now, you attacked online in a pretty vicious manner by Bene Brith and this woman, doya Kurtz, who refers to you as Ew hater, talking about how you were a terrorist supporter. I’ve looked at, I spent some time looking at what you write, looking at things you put out, nothing I saw in any of that that can be construed as antisemitic, as hating Jews. So what is the political dynamic in Canada that allows that to happen now? And what about the movement building to defend you? It seems like a lot of places that you would think but naturally come around and say, this is outrageous. We can’t let this happen. It’s not happening. So I want to hear about those two things. If you could lay those out for us.
Birju Dattani:
Yeah. I think that to put it this way, the way that these attacks took place has less to do with what I’ve actually said or written. And again, as I’ve mentioned before, part of the frustrating things was there have been very few opinions or positions attributed to me, it’s almost, there is the plugging in of buzzwords, right? So when you plug in words like apartheid, when you plug in words like occupation, that seems to elicit an emotive response, not a rational one. And again, political Zionism is a type of nationalism. Nationalism is emotional. So there’s an emotive response that doesn’t focus on what I’ve actually said. But then when you combine that with the fact that I’m Muslim and have three names biju, so again, the scrutiny of my middle name and what it could mean, the harnessing of fear did a really effective job. And so it becomes more what I’m capable of. So it’s basically suggesting that here is a person who’s a Muslim who has written about not just Israel-Palestine, but who’s written a lot about critically about terrorism, those national security type discussions.
What is he capable of? It really didn’t matter what I said at that point. It’s harnessing the imagination for people to really think or let their imaginations run wild in terms of, well, what is he capable of? Do you trust him to be in this sort of position? And again, as Churchill has said, I’m not in the habit of quoting him. I’m going to make an exception here, but a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has had an opportunity to put its pants on. And so I think the efforts then to come to my defense, the Yukon Human Rights Commission was one of the first out of the gate, and they made two public statements, which I’m very grateful for, and which were really powerful to say that in the time that he served as our executive director, we’ve known him to be intelligent, thoughtful, innovative, fair, and he has never been biased. He believes in human rights for all people. And we are all too familiar with the sorts of attacks that target human rights defenders. I’m paraphrasing that, but it is really rare for your former employer in that climate to put their necks out on the line publicly unless they’re very sure that this is just all a big smear campaign.
Some other organizations did defend me. Some of the defenses were run the spectrum of conservative tepid defenses to a lot more strident and fiery ones. But you are right to the extent that your question implies that there hasn’t been the same level of defense from the places that you’d typically expect it from, or at least to match the volume and the strided of the attacks, your guess is as good as mine. Although I would imagine that whenever one throws out the term or the smear where it’s false, antisemitism is something that sticks and it’s something that people are terrified about. So to even attempt a defense, if you’re an institution or a public body, you run the risk of conscripting yourself into that smear. And I think that the fear that comes with that is very hard to underestimate sometimes.
Marc Steiner:
It seems what’s happening to you at this moment being pushed out of a very prestigious, important position is the tip of the iceberg of what’s happening. It means there’s a dynamic happening at this moment here in the United States and in Canada and happening across the globe that centers so many things. One of those centers is the struggle inside of Israel Palestine right now. And if you don’t take the establishment position, you can have your career damaged. And so it seems to me that what happened to you in Canada could just be the beginning of something much larger,
Birju Dattani:
Perhaps. And I think that, and I should point out here, that there are some independent journalists that have kept a running tally of all of the people that have lost their jobs, right? From jobs that are prominent in the public eye to those which are maybe more, for lack of a better way of putting it, garden variety. For example, mark Haven, professor Mark Haven writing in Canadian Dimension has maintained a tally in every sector of people that have lost their jobs. And it’s staggering that list. I would imagine at this point, and this is just an estimate, but it’s probably approaching 55 0 documented cases. So in some ways, mine is one of the more public stories. It was a role that is a very important public office. But there are a number of doctors, educators, lawyers, et cetera, public servants that have lost their jobs or who have been investigated, and it’s found that these smears are actually
Marc Steiner:
Lost their jobs because of what,
Birju Dattani:
So let me clarify that for speaking about Israel Palestine. So for posts that they’re making on social media for conversations that they’re having around this, and so their social media posts will be highlighted where it’s in solidarity with Palestinians, or that’s critical of Israel’s conduct in Gaza.
Marc Steiner:
And you’re saying that Pia can use that to fire somebody to move them from their jobs?
Birju Dattani:
Oh, yeah. It is been attempted. So what they’ll do is they’ll use this provision of bringing the employer into disrepute. So there’s a lawyer, brilliant lawyer here, Jackie Mond, at a firm called Cavazos who’s talked about this, about how employers will use certain vague social media policies in the workplace to fire people in unionized environments. It’s harder to do, and there’s a lot of times where those investigations discover that the allegations don’t have any merit. So that also does happen. But in places where there are no union protections, for example, that is a lot easier to do and has happened
Marc Steiner:
In other conversations with some of the people you mentioned. We should have those to show the extent of how this is happening in Canada and where it’s going. I think it’s important for all of us to understand that this is a very dangerous trend, a frightening trend, actually. And so in your particular case at this moment, talk a bit about where, I know you can’t get into specifics. You are suing the Canadian government?
Birju Dattani:
No. So I’m suing certain groups and personalities. So for example, Ben Iri, the Center for Israel and Jewish Affairs.
Marc Steiner:
That’s right, I’m sorry. Yeah, yeah,
Birju Dattani:
Yeah. Ezra Event, who is the founder of Rebel Media, which is sort of our version of Alex Jones, to put it that way.
Marc Steiner:
No, I watched him and I watched him attack you. And he is, I mean, he very typical of the very right wing hosts that you become your raw meat for them.
Birju Dattani:
And of course, I’ve never been particularly interested in this show, so I steer clear of that. But yeah, he’s something akin to an Alex Jones here in Canada. That’s sort of how he’s regarded. Dalia Kurtz, whom you mentioned, who’s something of a social media influencer. I, again, don’t really know all that much more about her. And Melissa Lansman, who’s a conservative member of parliament here, who I think, again, just in terms of sheer volume, there’s a lot that’s come from her in terms of attacks. So that’s who we are pursuing in this litigation.
Marc Steiner:
I mean, yeah, she literally came out and said that you were a supporter of terrorism.
Birju Dattani:
Yes, that’s correct.
Marc Steiner:
So talk a bit about before we have to leave the movement growing around this and the support you’re getting and where that’s coming from.
Birju Dattani:
So I think that the movement around me is growing. I think one of the things that I did do is it’s easier now for me to talk about this than I was at the height of this. So before I stepped down, I was walking on eggshells. And so now not being encumbered in the same way, I am able to speak more about my experiences, what happened, the fact that I’m launching a lawsuit. And I think a lot of people are looking at that and saying it’s about time. It is high time that people who smear other people falsely as being antisemitic when there’s no basis in fact of that, of being terrorism, adjacent terrorism, glor supporter, et cetera, that a lot of people are rallying around this because a lot of people are exhausted and tired and fed up by all of this, especially what’s happened in the last 18 months and how frequent and shameless a lot of this was and has been for other people. And a lot of these people are members of the Jewish community who are rallying around me, which to a certain extent, I mean Jewish communities, like any community are non monolithic. But I think there have been so many members of the Jewish community and Israelis as well who have rallied to this because I think there’s also a struggle for who defines identity. And we’re sort of in this bizarre place where parliamentarians, those that are not Jewish, are dictating to members of the Jewish community, their Jewish identity,
That this is what it means to be Jewish in our eyes. And I think that they look at that with anger, with frustration, and to say, no, no one has bequeathed unto you the ability to tell us as those who identify as Jewish, that we are Jewish any more than. And again, some of these institutions, it’s the same thing. So in terms of the suppression of dissent among their ranks. And so there has been a movement that believes that to combat racism, you have to do that in solidarity with marginalized groups that face discrimination rather than treating these things as discreet disparate phenomenon. Really that’s what this is beginning to represent from what I can see. So that movement is growing, it is encompassing and countenance saying increasingly prominent figures. To give you an example, there is a member of Montreal City Council who has now publicly come out with his own lawsuit against the mayor of a town in Ontario, Hampton, Ontario, who was attacking him as an antisemite in ways that are very reminiscent of what happened to me. And so I reposted his statement that he’s suing Mayor Jeremy Levy on my LinkedIn. And this city councilor Alex Norris, publicly supported my lawsuit and I amplified his. So we may have led a spark. And so more of this may happen. And so now the courts become a forum potentially to conduct this struggle. And it looks like more people may be doing that.
Marc Steiner:
I think what’s happening to you is a critical story because it’s one of those things that happens. It’s a tip of an iceberg. It’s the beginning of something that could become an avalanche. You just said 50 more people are facing these kinds of discrimination and attacks throughout Canada. And so I think that we want to stay in touch with you as this fight unfolds, and also talk to some of the other folks in Canada who are also fighting and what that portends for Canadian democracy and the battle around for people who really believe that peace has to come to Israel Palestine. And I think what’s happening to you is nothing short of obscenity. And so we want to give you all the room you need here to get that story out and keep it out to make people understand what’s going on around us.
Birju Dattani:
Thank you so much, mark. I’m so grateful for that. And
Marc Steiner:
I appreciate you standing up, Biju, Biju, Ani. We’re going to link to all the stuff here on our site about the struggle he’s going through. You can read it yourself from different publications, see what he’s doing, and we will stay on top of this so that we can expose the power of the right here in this country and across the globe, taking away our rights to speak as we wish. And good luck and let’s stay in touch.
Birju Dattani:
Absolutely, mark and such a pleasure. And thank you for everything you’re doing to highlight some of these stories that are not getting airing in a more mainstream or wide stream forum. So thank you so much for everything you’re doing in terms of highlighting these stories.
Marc Steiner:
We won’t let them win.
Birju Dattani:
Absolutely hear here.
Marc Steiner:
Once again, let me thank Birju Dattani for joining us today, and thanks to David Hebden for running the program today and audio editor Alina Nehlich for working her audio magic Rosette Sewali for producing the Marc Steiner show and the Titleless Taylor rra for making it all work behind the scenes. And everyone here at The Real News for making this show possible. Please let me know what you thought about, what you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at marc@therealnews.com and I’ll get right back to you. So for the crew here at The Real News, I’m Marc Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.
This content originally appeared on The Real News Network and was authored by Marc Steiner.